Beiträge von MUGEN_S2K

Teil 4 (letzte :D):

Post #117:

Yes, Red Line now has 0w40. They have a 0w30 too. The problem is still that at this time, the industry is not capable of formulating anything with a viscosity spread that high without VII's. NO company has been able to formulate a 0w30 or 0w40 without VII's because there is no basestock that has the ability to maintain viscosity like that. I think there may be some 0w20 formulations that have little to no VII's but we don't drive Hondas.

There is some decent info in that [Ferrarichat] article (and if you read through the thread, you'd see that the link has already been posted AS IN THE ABSOLUTE FIRST LINE OF THE FIRST POST IN THE THREAD), HOWEVER, the info is not complete. The only real information you can garner from that link is why you should try to run a lighter 'cold viscosity' oil. Reading that post could lead you to believe that running a 0w20 or 0w30/40 oil is the best idea ever, and it would be incorrect.

As I've mentioned, different engines stress motor oils differently. Some engines (notably Honda and Toyota's grocery-getters) put very little stress on the oil. The engines are designed with very good tolerances and you can potentially run a good oil out to 15,000 miles or more before changing it.

I don't care what oil you're using, I sure as heck wouldn't run ANY oil out to 15,000 miles in a VR4 unless you really only cruise on the highway, never get into boost, never rev the engine past 3500-4000rpm, make sure that there are absolutely no leaks in the intake tract, ensure that you have the absolute best air filter (NOT K&N), make sure that your rings are tight and you're getting minimal blowby, not running rich or getting fuel dilution, no leaks in the cooling system, etc. etc. etc..... and then I STILL wouldn't run the oil 15,000 miles.

I HAVE (with uoa) run Red Line 10w40 to 7500 miles before changing it out and the uoa indicated that I could potentially run it out longer, perhaps to even 10,000, but only if I didn't track the car. The wear metals were still low enough, and the TBN sufficient to run it further, but they were at the level where I wouldn't want to be pushing the car too hard for that added 2500 miles on that oil.

And as I've mentioned, Mobil1 0w40 sheared from less than 1000 miles of street driving (zero track time). I won't touch that stuff again with a ten-foot pole. Yet, it works quite well in some other platforms and engines and they can run it for 7000 - 12,000 miles.

Likewise, Royal Purple 10w40 sheared to a 30 weight in ~1200-1600 miles with ONE track trip) and yet, some folks LOVE that stuff in their cars.

See what I mean?

Most regular folks just go, "Eh... I don't know what I put in the car, whatever they sell me at Jiffy Lube". Even most enthusiast folks just go, "Yeah, I use XXX because I heard it's really good". So few folks bother to actually check to see if what's good in other engines is actually good in ours.

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Post #130:

Keep in mind that although zinc levels are important for most oils (phosphorus levels are simply as a carrier for zinc in the form of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate aka zddp) , some tribologists have been using molybdenum as a boundary lubricant.

Red Line uses it and so does Motul. In fact Motul has the highest moly levels I've ever seen in an oil available for street vehicles. If I didn't write about it in this thread, you can search my posts about moly's properties as a boundary lubricant and EP and FM additive.

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Post #138:

Even at 90+f ambient temps, Red Line or Motul 10w40 is a good viscosity. Bear in mind that esters are very resistant to heat and at high temps, a 40 weight ester base holds viscosity better than a 50 weight dino.

The only reasons to use a 50 weight ester are if you'll be running really hard at high temps (endurance racing at 90+f) or if you have very loose bearing clearances (In which case you really should replace the bearings).

BTW, 3k GT driver,
Regarding Mobil's blurb about synthetic base stocks, the whole motor oil community uproar about Mobil 1 was because they began using Grp III hydrocracked base stocks without changing their prices or marketing.

Castrol was the company that began doing that. Mobil filed with the board that governs advertising, claiming that Castrol was falsely advertising their oils as synthetic when they weren't truly synthetic. After considerations, it was deemed that hydrocracked oils were processed enough to allow the synthetic moniker and Castrol could continue to advertise their oils as full synthetic.

Since Grp iii cracked base stock is far cheaper than the PAO base Mobil had been using and the board had deemed it OK to call it synthetic, when Mobil had a PAO shortage, they began using Grp iii oils for the base stocks. Since their costs lowered dramatically, they kept at it,... while keeping their advertising AND pricing the same. More profit.

I don't know if they ever changed back to a full PAO base after the uproar, but i don't believe so. After all, it was only a relatively small section who heard about it compared to the clueless masses. Last time I looked, the temp specs still indicated the lower temp ranges indicative of Grp iii. PAO oils have very good low temp specs.

Doesn't matter to me ever since I saw how fast Mobil 1 0w40 sheared in my car from just street driving. Their stuff won't ever go in my car(s) again.

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Post #143:

There are other good oils of course, but if you get Red Line or 300V you won't have to worry/wonder about the oil. Just stay away from Mobil 1 0w40 (sheared in about 1000 miles of street driving ) and I would avoid Royal Purple 10w40 too, (sheared in about 1200 miles, with a couple hundred miles of track use).

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Teil 3:

Post #57:

In a perfect world, a 0w20 or 0w30 oil would be great. Unfortunately, chemistry hasn't reached that point yet when it comes to oils.

Here's why I don't use a 0wXX

a) The greater the viscosity spread in an oil, the greater the likelihood of VII's to provide that spread and hence the greater the chance that the oil will shear in hard use, so anything wider than a 0w20-0w30 has a greater chance of shearing under hard use and for hard use in our engines a 40weight fits best.

b) If Redline/Motul made a 0w40 that didn't shear, I'd be all over it, but they know that their oils will likely be pushed hard so they don't even make one with that spread because it'ld probably shear at the track. Mobil 1's 0w40 shears. Redline's 5w40 has also shown to shear under very hard use, the 10w40 though, holds up pretty well.

c) Oils don't lubricate as well when cold because they don't flow anywhere near as well as when they reach proper operating temps. Thge lack of sufficient flow is one reason why you need to avoid leadfoot till the engine's warmed up. I try to limit my rpm's to 3000 rpm until the car has warmed up (takes about 10-15 minutes of driving). Definitely not over 4000 rpm for the first 15 minutes.

d) In addition, if the car has been sitting for a while, some parts may be dry for the first few moments of startup since the oil has drained into the sump. This is what the majority of 'normal' engine wear is attributed to. The first few moments during and after startup. That's another reason why I like ester-based oils. They have an inherent polarity that causes them to stick to surfaces. They will maintain an oil film better than dino and PAO's providing that little bit of help till oil pressure gets up and oil is actually flowing. A 10w ester is subjectively better on cold startup than a PAO and definitely better than a dino.

So why a 10w40 and not 10w30? Well, it's all about useage, temps and clearances. If it's just for daily driving, 10w30 is fine, but if you're going to push the car, the resulting higher oil temps would be better served with a higher HTHS. Why a 40 weight and not 50 or higher? With my bearing clearances of 0.0018 (and any 6G72 still within upper factory specs), a 50 weight won't flow well enough at higher rpms. A 40weight with Redline and Motul's HTHS at temps when pushed protects better than a 30 weight or dino 50 weight and will flow fine. Now if my bearing clearances were something in the 0.0008 - 0.0012 range, I might actually try one of the 0w30 options (or maybe even a 0w20).

See, I talked to one of the head tribologists (oil engineers) who developed Motul 300V about the 6G72 with my clearances + redline of 8300 rpm + e16g power ~700crank HP (~mid-500 awhp) roadcourse use and I not only wanted to know what they recommended for the application (as in viscosity), I also like to know why.

If anyone here's a BITOG'er, you might know who Terry Dyson is. Well, I've been talking to him about a new oil he's helped a small independent company develop. A 5w40 that has shown to be incredibly resistant to shear and especially to fuel dilution. It appears that this new oil has better shear resistance than 300V, which in itself is extremely shear resistant. The question is whether this oil shows better resistance to mechanical shear or chemical shear? Motul 300V and Redline are both very good with chemical shear, but I'm not sure how well they handle chemical shear caused by fuel dilution. This new oil certainly looks to be a very good option for anyone with fuel dilution problems (could be a good oil to use while tuning a newly HP modded car), but I haven't seen any concrete results with very high HP turbo applications, so we'll see.

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Post #69:

But to answer your question, if daily driving is the purpose, then there are plenty of good oils available out there that will get the job done at much cheaper cost. In fact, for just daily driving and folks who don't ever really push their cars, Pennzoil Platinum would be a good option, especially when you can find it on a buy-one-get-one-free sale.

The reason I bother to spend the extra for Redline/Motul 300V is because I actually push my car hard. I can tell you that one engine rebuild will easily blow away all the potential 'savings' from using a less expensive oil. But I've stated in other threads (can't remember if I've stated it in this one), if you drive like Miss Daisy is in the passenger seat, feel free to use whatever oil you wish.

***P.S. edited to add*** forgot to mention. As far as data and evidence correlating oil use and engine wear goes, that exactly what UOA's are for. UOA = Used Oil Analysis. There are more than a few folks on 3si who use the services of Blackstone Labs, however, if you have the money for it and are actually interested enough, try Terry Dyson's analysis directly. Terry is well-known in the industry and his analyses of oils can potentially help save your car. They can also tell you if a particular oil is performing better in your car or worse, creating more wear or reducing it etc. One thing to remember is that it may take anywhere up to 2-3 OCI's (oil change intervals) before the new oil stabilizes the chemistry in the engine to get an accurate picture of its performance. Redline is one of the quirky oils in this respect. Folks who have no patience should stay away from having Redline analyzed.

When switching to Redline from a different oil (especially a dino), a UOA within the first couple of OCI''s has a tendency to show increased levels of wear metals. This trend generally dissapears after about the 3rd-4th OCI. The speculation is that the polarity of the ester based oil cleans better than other oils (including PAO's which are not polarized) and the increased wear metals are from the removal of crud in your engine, because folks who continue using it find that after the 3rd or 4th OCI, Redline starts showing very good results with low wear metals.

The other distinct possibility is the additive pack in Redline. Redline and Motul 300V are two of the very few oil available that have a very high molybdenum content (and very high ZDDP levels too). Moly is both a FM (friction modifier) and an EP(extreme pressure)/AW(anti wear) ingredient, some of these additives don't work well until they replace the previous oil's chemistry (especially the ones that coat metal parts. You can find more of my posts explaning how moly works in oils. Until the new chemistry and add pack has compleetely replaced the old, it may be possible for the engine to actually experienced slightly increased wear. Keep in mind, in UOA's this is measured in ppm (parts per million). Not something you can see with the naked eye or feel between your fingers. By the time you can see or feel material in your old oil, you're already in trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutten
Questions for us "daily drivers"... Is Redline oil 100% ester concentration like 300V or a blend? Can 100% ester oils cause increased wear on seals ?

Redline is not 100% ester. It has about 14% (or was it 18%?) PAO for exactly that reason. Esters generally cause seal swell (not wear), while PAO's usually cause seal shrinkage (mineral/dino usually causes seal swell, which is why some folks get leaks switching from dino to some PAO's), so in the case of Redline they add a little PAO to balance it. There are other ways to manage it though.

There are additives that can be used to combat both seal swell and/or seal shrinkage. In fact, there are certain esters that cause shrinkage and not swell. IIRC, this is one of the reasons why 300V can use a full ester formula, by combining different esters with different properties offering specific advantages in different areas. That's one of the interesting things about ester chemistry, they keep improving it and can practically tailor make a specific ester with the characteristics desired and ester-based chemistry is completey renewable, it's not based off mineral oils.

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Teil 2:

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Post #34:

Now a couple of things to keep in mind,

-Yes, the tests were conducted on Mobil 1 EP [Extended Performance] oil.

-The changeover [to Group III base stocks] has been gradual, it started with some grades and gradually included others.

- Yes, Mobil still claims that their M1 is fully synthetic. No one is arguing that the oil is not fully synthetic going by the current legal nomenclature. The problem arose when Castrol won the ability to call Grp III hydrocracked dino oil a 'synthetic'. Mobil was the company that complained, and when the decision was made to allow it, Mobil saw the opportunity to change their formulations making them cheaper to produce, while retaining the label and maintaining the price.

- Try contacting Mobil and outright asking them "Does Mobil 1 contain Grp III hydrocracked base stocks?" and they will not answer. Go ahead, give it a shot. They're reply is that Mobil 1 is a full synthetic. Well that wasn't the question now was it? considering that they can legally call Grp II hydrocracked basestocks a 'synthetic'. doesn't change the fact that although the hydrocracked oils are now almost as good as some PAO basestocks, they are stil not comparable under extreme conditions (and even PAO's don't hold up as well as ester based oils under extreme conditions).

- There is conjecture that the change to Grp III hydroocracked basestock is now being reversed and is being reverted to PAO, occurring initially only because Mobil 1 had a shortage of available PAO basestock and chose to take advantage of the legal ability to continue calling the oil a full synthetic wth the Grp III stock. This is however, conjecture at this point, and even if it's true, I still personally choose not to support a company that changed it's formulation to something cheaper to produce while sacrificing performance under extreme conditions without disclosing this to their customers and retaining the premium pricing and increasing profit margins.

I'm not saying Mobil 1 is a crappy oil for streetcars. For most cars, even dino is fine. But I push my car hard, and when I'm doing that, I'd rather know that I'm using something that provides great protection. Roadcoursing falls under the category of extreme use. So does dragracing with significantly more HP than stock. The fact that Mobil 1 has shown to shear has removed it from my list of reliiable oils. If I wanted a 20 weight oil, I'd have chosen a stable 20 weight oil, but I don't think 20 weight provides adequate protection under sustained conditions on a roadcourse.

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Post #35:

Forgot about that. I haven't actually used/tested Amsoil myself so I can't say. I've always heard it's a good oil. Never heard anyone say anything bad about it, although there are those who say that Amsoil tends to make their oil out to be much better than it is. Doesn't change the fact that it's still considered a good oil though, but I don't know how well it holds up under extreme use/conditions. The UOA's I've seen on Amsoil were pretty good, but they were all on daily driver unmodded cars. Haven't seen any UOA's on modded cars or ones that see the track, and one of the things about their VOA's is that Amsoil (and Mobil 1) have no moly in their oils.

Moly is a great friction modifier and a very good EP additive. Somewhere in another post I detailed how moly works in the engine. Motul 300V has the highest levels of moly I've ever seen in a gasoline vehicle motor oil. Redline's moly levels are close. M1 and Amsoil have none and Royal Purple has about 1/5 the moly levels of Redline. I don't use Royal Purple motor oils because they tend to shear too. Amsoil is pretty shear stable so if it's cheaper than Redline, I'd say stick with it.

BTW, one thing I forgot to add for those thinking of switching to Redline or Motul 300V. Because these oils are sold as racing oils they do not have to comply with the API's max levels of phosphates. The phosphate content has been reduced for all API certified oils because high levels can lead to decreased life of the catalytic converters. The phosphates however, are in the form of ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) which is an EP/AW additive which comes into play under extreme conditions. The engineers I spoke to said that ZDDP actually comes into play under very high forces.

ZDDP is a boundary lubricant meaning it comes into play when the oil film is squeezed out under very high pressure (most commonly between the cams and rollers and the rings and cylinders). More ZDDP doesn't mean more protection per se, but longer protection under those conditions. The important part is that ZDDP (and moly which is also a boundary lubricant) can come into play betwen the bearings and journals near redline (due to the very high reciprocating forces) and also with any engine that is making anywhere in the 200+ crank HP/liter. All our modded cars making 450awhp or more fall into this category.

Because these 2 oils aren't API regulated (being marketed as race oils), they don't follow the lowered phospate limits and have high ZDDP levels (good for extreme use), BUT they can potentially kill your catalytic converters quicker. This is not really a problem if you aren't burning oil (or drive a racecar without cats).

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Post #40:

The lowest prices I've found for 300V here were $25.75 per 2 liter can shipped if you order over $100. since we need 3 cans, it was easier to order 4 or more to get the free shipping.

As far as how moly works, I don't know where my post was but here's a quick rundown.

Moly bonds with any metallic surface it's exposed to especially where there's some heat and pressure involved. It fills in surface asperities (roughness) and creates a very, very smooth surface reducing friction. It also acts somewhat similar to graphite in the sense that the molecules shingle. One way folks have described the way moly works is like sliding something over a bunch of playing cards. The cards slide over each other creating low friction.

Moly however bonds pretty strongly to the metal. In fact some folks testing it have said that after moly bonds to the metal surface, the only real way to get it off is to grind it off. I had my bearings dry-film moly coated, but the coaters didn't take precautions to avoid coating the bearing ends (at least they made sure not to coat the bearings backs). I had to scrape the moly coating off the bearings ends to avoid affecting the bearing crush specs and after scraping the coating off (only some of the bearings had the overspray), the ends were left a dull gray and there was no way to change that (since I sure as heck wasn't going to grind the bearing ends).

Moly's bond and friction modifier characteristics can withstand pressures up to 500,000 psi. Althugh this sounds like the Prolong/Zmax etc. BS, the company conducted some tests on the effectiveness of moly (to see if they wanted to use it on their equipment) had a small 3HP engine coated with moly. It ran with no lubrication at all, and when they tore the engine apart, it showed practically no wear.

One of the newer EP/FM/AW additives is Boron. You'll see it in some oils. It works in a similar fashion to Moly and once it bonds to the surface, it supposedly lasts for a good long time. Not sure if it will withstand the pressures moly is good for

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Post #44:

""Originally Posted by Ondontii: Cant you get moly additives by themselves?""

Yep, but not all moly is created equal. Most of the moly additives that you buy separately in small amounts to add to the oil is moly disulfide. while moly disulfide is a good lubricant, the difficulty is with keeping the stuff in suspension so it gets where it needs to go. Most often, it will seperate out of the oil before it has a chance to coat the parts that need it. The other problem is the size. A lot of the moly additives have particulate sizes too large and they get trapped in the filter which = not getting where it's needed and possibily clogging the filter prematurely. Most of the good oils seem to be using organo-form moly's like Moly Dithiocarbamate.

There are probably some moly add packs that are decent but I don't know which ones those would be. It's generally better to just get a better formulated oil to start with.

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Post #46:

[Royal Purple] 10w40 sheared to a 30 weight by the time a UOA was done at 2500 miles. since most oils that shear tend to shear fairly quickly (M1 0w40 will shear within 1000 miles), who knows when it begins shearing? In one of the links to earlier posts I made that Novot posted, I mentioned that under extreme conditions (track use at high temps and repeated redline especially if the car is modded for more HP) it's possible for an oil to start shearing within a couple of hot laps (wonder why some folks can sping a bearing within a few laps of Road America?). Once an oil has sheared, the viscosity loss is permanent.

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Das ist wohl mein längster Post in diesem Forum

Dachte die Infos, auch wenn etwas älter, im unten stehenden Post könnten den ein oder anderen interessieren.
Geht u.a. um die Mobil 1/Castrol Debatte über ihre nur scheinbar Vollsynthetischen-Öle, Ester basierende Motoröle (Motul 300V, Redline), Viskositäten usw.

Teil 1:

Interesting thread - source URL:
http://www.3si.org/forum/f1/one-r…ght-oil-383446/

Original poster = bluemax_1
July, 2007

Topic:
One of the reasons I run Motul/Redline 10w40 and not any 50 weight oil

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Post #1:

The [Ferrarichat] link [below] is an interesting read for anyone interested in fluid dynamics and how viscosity is related to your engine. ... There is some decent info in that article..., HOWEVER, the info is not complete. The only real information you can garner from that link is why you should try to run a lighter 'cold viscosity' oil. Reading that post could lead you to believe that running a 0w20 or 0w30/40 oil is the best idea ever, and it would be incorrect:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?…otor_oil_basics

I spoke to a few folks at NG07 and one of the topics that came up was motor oil and why my personal choice was Motul 300V or Redline 10w40.

Here's a short list of reasons why I run it:

1) The ester based oils (Redline and Motul 300V) are much better at handling high heat than even PAO synthetics.

2) Ester based oils have also shown their resistance to viscosity shear. In UOA's (Used Oil Analyses) Mobil 1 sheared 30+% within 1500 miles. Motul 300V and Redline sheared maybe 1%. Motul 300V is rated for 0 shear up to 392f.

3) Ester based oils seem to have an inherent ability to resist acidity. Even when the TBN's (Total Base Number) are lower than other oils, they can maintain this TBN for a long time while the other oil's TBN's continue to decrease and this has been confirmed by Terry Dyson. BTW, both Redline's street oils and Motul's 300V have very robust additive packs suitable for not only running both on track, but also on the street and if you don't have fuel dilution or dirt contamination problems, both these oils can actually be run for long OCI's (Oil Change Intervals) up to and beyond 7,500 miles.

4) I actually spoke to one of the techs responsible for developing Motul 300V's new formula and asked him for a recommended oil weight for use in my car for roadracing after providing details about bearing oil clearances, HP levels (with e16g's based on what folks have been making at ~20 psi on e16g's), rpm redlines and temps. He immediately recommended the 10w40. Motul's 300V is actually used out of the can in racing applications (WRC and GT) unlike Mobil 1 who likes to lead consumers to believe that their OTS oil is the same as the Mobil oil used in racing when it isn't.

5) The natural polarity of ester based oils tends to make them 'cling' to parts they come in contact with. An interesting story is that the guy who formed BITOG while performing testing on various gear oils (in a machine he made) found that the Redline oil he tested was much more difficult to completely clean out between tests than anything else. In his own words, "The stuff is like paint. It sticks to whatever it hits and once it's on there, it stays on"

6) Motul 300V and Redline are both great oils and I will stick to them. Redline is a little easier for me to find (and it's a little cheaper), but I will switch up between the 2 a few more times and see what the UOA's have to say before deciding what I will stick with.

7) If anyone was still wondering, someone has performed a gas chromatography test on Mobil 1 in a lab and proven that a large percentage of it is Grp III hydrocracked dino.

Read the link above and perhaps you might begin to understand why you DON'T want to run an overly thick oil. Not only do you lose HP due to increased viscous drag, thicker oil also causes higher temps. The bearing-journal interfaces tend to see much higher temps than a temp gauge displays and the tighter your clearances, the higher these temps will be.

Using an overly thick oil can be one reason why folks pull the bearings to find that they're showing a lot of copper with minimal scoring of the bearings. the oil at the bearing-journal interface could be reaching temps beyond what the lead babbitt is good for. This depends on the different percentages of lead and tin etc. but can be as low as 300f-400f (yes the motor oil can reach those temps at the bearing-journal interface if you use too thick an oil). Losing the babbitt changes your oil clearances (and copper is nowhere near as good an anti-friction/galling surface as the babbitt).

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Post #5:

Did you happen to read the link I posted? It'll give you some insight to optimal oil viscosity. You don't want a 20w40. You're still thinking in oldschool dino oil terms, i.e. the narrower the multi viscosity range, the less VII (Viscosity Index Improvers) and the less likely the oil is to shear. Redline 10w40 has practically no VII's and doesn't shear.

You want the lowest initial number for the oil to provide the best lubrication possible till the engine heats up. If Redline could make a 0w40 that didn't shear, that would be ideal, but they have a 5w40 and that has shown to shear a little in hard use, so I stick with the 10w40. I haven't yet tested Motul 300V's 5w40, but they also claim 0 shear to 392f.

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Post #24:

...The little bit of iron and aluminum that shows up in some oils' VOA's (Virgin Oil Analysis) is not a problem. Some oils (like Redline) also show Silicon. While a UOA might misinterpret this as dirt contamination from poor air filtration, Redline uses it [silicon] as an anti-foaming ingredient and in this respect, it works well. Redline is one tough oil to foam. But back to the Fe and Al, as long as you send a virgin sample to the lab, what matters is if there's an increase.

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Zitat

Original von roku

Warum nicht einfach eine neue Dichtung holen?

Zitat

Original von Twinky
Boah geil ey!!! Meine ist noch nicht da
Andy das ist doch die 60mm anlage, oder warum sind die endrohre so dunkelblau. Kenne das nur vom 70mm??!!

Die haben alle die blau angelaufenen Endrohre.

deja vu

Die Toda hat an den Endrohren noch die alte Aufhängung mit nur einem Halter

Zitat

Original von AndiS2000
hy, an die Krümmer Fraktion, macht von Euch einer nach Einbau und Test einen "Bericht" hinsichtlich Verarbeitungsqualität, Einbau und wie sich das Leistungsverhalten usw. verändert? Mein OEM Krümmer pfeift an den Flanschen zum Kat aus dem letzten Loch :D.
Wollte mir eigentlich einen OEM holen. Wenn sich aber der Toda bewährt und fühlbar etwas bringt wäre das eine Alternative.
Preislich natürlich nicht. Daher machts nur bei deutlichen Verbesserungen in Bezug auf Sound, Leistung, Drehmomentverlauf Sinn den zu kaufen.

Ich glaube das werden die wenigsten hier machen. Das kostet u.a. Geld, Zeit... damit kann man sich locker ein weiteres Nachbau Tuning Teil kaufen

Zitat

Original von Sadayoshi
Mein ASM/Toda krümmer ist letztes jahr gerissen. Aber jetzt kommt mister copy paste sicher wieder und sagt ist ein Montagefehler.
Der halter der zum Motorblock geht hat sich auch schon verabschiedet..

Nein, der ist wahrscheinlich gerissen wegen der dünnen Wandstärke die wohl alle aftermarket Krümmer haben.
Wie soll sonst der Größe Gewichtsunterschied zu Stande kommen.
Die Verwendung von Edelstahl mit dünner Wandstärke hat Gewichts - und Kostenvorteile. Letzter Punkt ist für den Kunden eher ein Nachteil

Aber das hatte ich paar Seiten weiter hinten schon mal erwähnt.

Diese ganze Schweißnaht Diskussion driftet hier ein bisschen auseinander.

Es hat doch keiner hier behauptet das die Schweißnaht nicht hält. Von außen mag der Krümmer ja ordentlich aussehen aber innen nun mal nicht. Und wenn man das bereits durch eine einfache Sichtprüfung feststellen kann dann spricht das nicht gerade für Qualität.

Zitat

Original von john_p
Und so nebenbei, den FN2 mochte Anfangs auch niemand, mich eingeschlossen

Beim FN2 haben mich nur zwei Dinge gestört.

Die Hinterachse die im Vergleich zum EP3 ein Rückschritt war. Der neue hat die leider beibehalten

Der Motor - 201 PS!? WTF Honda? 1 PS mehr als beim EP3 bei zugleich höherem Gesamtgewicht. Dabei wäre es beim K20A kein all zu großes Problem gewesen 20-30PS mehr rauszuholen. Das Produkt-Management bei Honda muss man wohl nicht verstehen .

Ich finde auch das die Ring Zeit (die vom Serienmodell steht noch aus und soll folgen) eher als Bonus anzuschauen ist anstatt als Kaufargument .

Zitat

Original von Lingi

Aber am Heck scheint es mir wollten sie denen, die überholt werden, zusätzlich zur Demütigung, generelell mit möglichst viel Hässlichkeit beleidigen.
.

Soll ich meinen Rotstift auspacken?
Rein optisch sieht der vom Concept besser aus. Sich scheint mir das Heck breiter zu sein im Vergleich zur Serie.

Hier war noch alles gut

[Blockierte Grafik: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2_1DtzsiTDE/VPnGthsefnI/AAAAAAAAVXI/JSpS_1j7YZU/s1600/honda-civic-type-r-concept-geneva-1.jpg]

Bilder vom Profi
[Blockierte Grafik: https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t31.0-8/11043355_10153042955172860_8822311112504907566_o.jpg]
[Blockierte Grafik: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/887342_10153041252087860_7194047811009500321_o.jpg]

Mugen und Co. werden das Äußere schon richten nur kostet das wieder extra.

Bin gespannt auf die ersten Fahrberichte.

Chris Harris bringt es vom Design her genau auf den Punkt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBPk4NdtkJQ&feature=youtu.be

Es sind wie immer die kleinen Details wo beim genaueren betrachten immer mehr ins Auge fallen. Leider in diesem Fall eher negativ. Aber das ist nur meine Meinung.

Ich bin auch für Form follows function aber hier bin ich mir nicht mehr so sicher . Man könnte fast meinen die hätten im Windtunnel gesessen und überlegt, was passiert wenn ich hier was rausstehen lasse, hier ein Eck hinzufüge und zur großen Überraschung kam DOWNFORCE raus

Ich hab mal ein paar Details markiert

Je mehr Bilder ich mir von dem Wagen anschaue umso hässlicher finde ich ihn :-|.

Das Ding sieht aus wie der feuchte Tuning-Traum eines 18 jährigen

Wie kann man Front und Heck nur so verschandeln, da passt gar nichts mehr zusammen.
Concept
[Blockierte Grafik: http://www.inautonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Honda-Civic-Type-R-Concept-Paris-2014-05.jpg]

Serie
[Blockierte Grafik: http://www.motoroids.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Honda-Civic-Type-R-Official-Images-2.jpg]

Concept
[Blockierte Grafik: http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/298/665/3/S2986653/slug/l/honda-type-r-concept-05-1.jpg]

Serie
[Blockierte Grafik: http://indianautosblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2016-Honda-Civic-Type-R-rear-at-the-2015-Geneva-Motor-Show.jpg]

Das Teil braucht dringend ne Schönheuts-Op von den JDM Tunern

Zitat

Original von AndyAP1
och Eddy, jetzt fang Du nicht auch noch an...
natürlich nicht, soweit solltest du mich doch kennen

alles gut Andy